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Post by Shadwen on Feb 27, 2014 13:09:44 GMT -6
Not yet, but I might give it a shot.
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Post by Yoh Komori on Mar 8, 2014 0:45:20 GMT -6
I want to see if now that we have stealth and murder, we have enough plays (along with another wing beast monster) to run icarus attack.
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Post by Shadwen on Mar 8, 2014 7:28:14 GMT -6
We could run a simorgh build, or use zephyros and gale.
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Post by Drillwarrior on Mar 8, 2014 9:25:48 GMT -6
Okay, ignore the pre-edit version of this post. I may have forgotten a card's full effect. Anyways, simorgh hurts the opponent only so that would be nice, but doesn't fitting in more winged beasts kind of screw with the overall balance of the deck?
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Post by Shadwen on Mar 8, 2014 14:05:14 GMT -6
The main engine would be unaffected. You would use the camel/locust most likely and monster killers like gale as a backup option. It could refer to the old falcon pacman build.
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Post by cardtheorist on Sept 9, 2014 19:03:11 GMT -6
Having run variations of this for a few years, here is what my style is and what I think HAS to be added in the deck (can't always differentiate the two, so yeah...):
-Anti Special Summon. If you don't stop the opponent's special summons, they will pick your setup apart. Running 5-6 is minimum imo. Emptiness, Jowgen, and Fossil Dyna should be staples in PACMAN. In earlygame, the opp can generate advantage through sp summons, and PACMAN is best mid-late game. To alleviate that, you have to minus your opp's plays with anti-special summon, as PACMAN is too slow if you don't. If you try to out-special summon the opponent, 9 out of ten times, you will lose.
-Stall. I don't like to use offensive traps like mirror force, D prison, etc, since they can trigger effects and don't offer continual protection. You can let your monsters take out the opp's cards; that is the whole purpose. It is better early game. Strengthening earlygame for PACMAN is a must. They are standalone cards, but rely on some combination of monster+protecting said monster. If you don't get either one, you lose. Stall does that better than offense-traps, minimizing such problems, because they have staying power.
-Other stuff too, maybe I'll write up an article on PACMAN and stall decks if I'm not too lazy...
OK, here it is
Building A Competitive PACMAN Deck Today
There are several problems with the traditional PACMAN deck. This is obvious, because if there were no problems, it would be topping at each event. However, there are ways to alleviate that by making drastic changes, changes that should be the norm if it is still to be competitive today. I’ll go over the problems first, and solutions at the end.
1. Components for setup- How many cards do you need for a ‘good’ field? Stall or offensive traps (I’ll just call them that. Basically, cards that somehow nullify the opponent’s monsters or their effects, like needle ceiling or CED) is needed as well as monsters. But, even running offensive monsters that are a -1 for the opp each turn, you still need continual protection, from traps and effects. You’ll need to stop battle from happening to your monsters, stop traps, stop monster effects, and stop spells against your monsters. If taken individually, it looks like too many things are needed to stop opponent plays. And that is the problem with traditional PACMAN- you need too many different cards to maintain a field.
2. Time for setup- Another problem. First turn, you’re lucky if you don’t get wiped off. Being limited to 1 monster per turn basically, you can minus the opponent enough to win only if you get monsters and protection cards in the right proportion, and at the right times. Why? Because PACMAN runs too many different components for the setup. You need stall, you need monsters, you need something to stop the opp’s monster effects, etc. It takes too long to get what you need, because there are too many pieces of the puzzle, as it were. Running more cards to protect your setup means you have less of a win condition, and not enough to win the game. Running less protection means your field will just get wiped, probably in the first few turns. Also, remember that you can’t rely on getting a good hand. PACMAN only wins-no, it only has a chance at winning- if it opens well. Otherwise, its an auto-loss. It keeps losing because of this.
3. Setup Achieved- Once, after all that hard work, you have the setup, it doesn’t mean you’ve won- it just means you’re actually in the game. You've prevented the opponent’s plays. Great. Pretty soon, they’ll just blow it up. You’ve likely spent a lot of your trap cards, and don’t have much protection left. Yeah, the opponent is getting minused, but because of the metagame today, big plays are made in a single turn. And your poor scarabs can’t do anything when its not your turn, nor can the locust, or the others. They are not providing any kind of advantage right now. Little is in the way of the opponent squashing you like a bug. Monsters can get themselves from the grave and spam so many effects, can reuse and recycle so much, that it would make an environmentalist proud. Basically, monsters will trump your backrow. How to win then?
4. Solutions- Running too many offensive cards is not an option. It only increases the chances of an auto-loss, and does so faster. To err on the side of defense is better. But your offense gets weaker, because Scarabs and Locust rely on +1s. If you have no offense at all, the opponent can’t break your defense, or will be extremely unlikely- but then, where is the win condition? Essentially, you have to concentrate your win condition in as few cards as possible. The less the better. You have to. This is a MUST. That allows the rest of the deck to run more consistently, and keeps you in the game. It is also better if you can actually do that synergistically. Also, you have to use cards that can create a good defense in as few component types as possible. The kinds of defenses you run can depend on the type of win condition you have, but mainly just which you lean toward; they are all essentially the same. How many cards to fulfil your win condition? 8? 5? No. I mean REALLY concentrated. Try 1, 2, or 3. Yes, you can win with just that, and I’ll get to that in the end. I call such variants, due to the win condition being concentrated and also tricking people because they have no idea what the win condition is, CONMAN! First though:
The components for such a deck are:
1. Stall (Running 10 at minimum is best I’ve found). It is better than offensive traps, as it is much longer lasting. Wall of Revealing Light, Red Screen, Swords, etc. It may not neutralize the opp’s monsters effects, but that is OK because for that, you have... 2. Anti-Special Summoners (Running 6 at the very bare minimum is a must, I use 8). Jowgen, Fossil Dyna, Emptiness, Barrier Statues. That’s your bread and butter here. Special summons are a means to an end. If your opponent can’t special summon, a lot of their cards are minuses. Sattellars would be like vanillas searching out vanillas. Burning abyss would be nothing. Shaddolls would still put up a fight however, but its a war of attrition, about who runs out of resources first, so you can use… 3. Draw cards (depends on what you prefer. I like to use 3 each of linx, camel, and reckless, and 2 PoD and 2 upstart) Worm Linx, Reckless, Lacooda, PoD, Upstart, Cardcar. This is for consistency, and nets you more resources. Use them. Shaddolls go 1 for 1 often when they go to the grave, but if you use draw cards, you can keep up. They might be better off early, but if you can reach the end, you’ll find that they used up their squamatas and dragons and stuff, and it will be easier. In a war of attrition, who has more resources, wins. 4. Protection- (I use 7-8 here) to stop your opponent from their other effects like traps and spells, You can use Bribes, Wiretaps, 7 tools, My Body as a Shield, etc. It depends mostly on the win condition. Those are essentially all you need to run the deck. Just those 4 components, and out of those 4, you only need stall and anti special summon early, and those you should be getting first turn. Even if you don’t get an anti special summoner, you can use the draw power to get it next turn, hopefully. Because the win condition is so highly concentrated, I didn’t count it in, because there are so few of them that it doesn’t hurt the consistency. Actually, that’s one of the advantages of the deck; you get what you need, fast. Its easier to do so because you’re running almost only defense (which is why the deck often gets confused for a troll deck, or exodia, or something the opponent questions) and have to pull off that win with just a few cards.
There are three win conditions I’ve made so far, they’re the only ones I can think of right now that are best in this deck type: - 3 Snipe Hunter- getting a lot of cards from draw means you’ll be getting cards that do the same thing. Multiples. You can use them for Hunter, popping cards and attacking directly. Running 2 means you might not get Hunter it in time, and will end up discarding at endphases, and eventually decking out because of it. -2 Guardian Sphinx- I think this or the Hunter build is best. It doesn’t rely on a lot of cards in hand, which makes it much easier to use, and it doesn’t target or destroy, and it clears the field of monsters just by flipping. And, it isn’t dark, so SIM can be used. More reliable, it seems. It can get by Leo, Shaddoll bosses, Beezle, and a host of other such annoying cards that Snipe can’t. Unfortunately, Snipe can be used to pop annoying cards like Decree and such, which this deck can’t (no mst is mained). Each has advantages and disadvantages. But running 2 cards for the win condition as opposed to 3 for the Hunter variant allows more defensive cards. -1 Beast King Barbaros- Perhaps a bad idea, but to run only 1 King means that the opponent’s field can be wiped while using the whole deck as a defense. After summoning redundant monsters like multiple jowgens and draw cards, It can put up over 3000 damage with other monsters, and its high attack can get over powerful monsters like Felgrand (assuming the opponent managed to get it out anyway). Ideally, an anti special summoner would still be left over to prevent an opponent follow up. However, it would have trouble against hands and such. Probably not the best variant. Too many things could go wrong.
Thank you for reading. I’m not so good at explaining, and adding stuff so feel free to ask me anything, especially if I missed something.
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Post by BurnForGame on Sept 13, 2014 19:35:49 GMT -6
I have been running PACMAN off and on for years now, and I can say with rather high certainty that ^this is the best, most well-informed post I have ever read on the subject, and is one of the best posts I have ever found on any subject. I would say you're rather great at explaining, so don't worry about that.
I've found that the Burn win condition (i.e., Stealth Bird) has been well-suited for this kind of deck, but it also now suffers from being a DARK monster. That will need to be evaluated, as there may be a non-DARK alternative Burn option that I simply haven't needed to know before now.
Also, I would love to know what your thoughts are on Heat Wave. If you haven't tried it, it essentially functions as a temporary hybrid of Stall and Anti-Special Summoners, but it goes one step beyond by locking out Normal Summons as well! Sure, it hits your own hypothetical summons as well, but if you don't draw stall and you go first, Heat Wave means your monster will be that much safer. As I'm sure you know, turns when you don't need stall cards to protect your monster are golden in this sort of deck. I'm not sure if you will think Heat Wave warrants space in here, but I think it works nicely.
Finally, I love to try to find room for Macro Cosmos in PACMAN. It specifically protects the longevity of Vanity's Emptiness while shutting Shaddoll and Burning Abyss (just to name two) out of their most important setup effects.
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Post by cardtheorist on Sept 14, 2014 21:39:36 GMT -6
I have been running PACMAN off and on for years now, and I can say with rather high certainty that ^this is the best, most well-informed post I have ever read on the subject, and is one of the best posts I have ever found on any subject. I would say you're rather great at explaining, so don't worry about that. I've found that the Burn win condition (i.e., Stealth Bird) has been well-suited for this kind of deck, but it also now suffers from being a DARK monster. That will need to be evaluated, as there may be a non-DARK alternative Burn option that I simply haven't needed to know before now. Also, I would love to know what your thoughts are on Heat Wave. If you haven't tried it, it essentially functions as a temporary hybrid of Stall and Anti-Special Summoners, but it goes one step beyond by locking out Normal Summons as well! Sure, it hits your own hypothetical summons as well, but if you don't draw stall and you go first, Heat Wave means your monster will be that much safer. As I'm sure you know, turns when you don't need stall cards to protect your monster are golden in this sort of deck. I'm not sure if you will think Heat Wave warrants space in here, but I think it works nicely. Finally, I love to try to find room for Macro Cosmos in PACMAN. It specifically protects the longevity of Vanity's Emptiness while shutting Shaddoll and Burning Abyss (just to name two) out of their most important setup effects. Thank you! Yeah, stall burn is nice, I used to run it, but being dark is a problem. The other monsters don't give as much burn power as bird. I remember considering heat wave, but it is situational. It is good if you get it first turn, but that is about it. If you don't get stall, then wave should have been replaced with stall. That is maybe just my style; I main 0 mst, no Dark Hole, nothing like that. (But its a control build, whih has something to do with it, I think) I only run stuff for the win. Maxing out components for the strategy is ideal, imo, rather than alternatives. In the event that my opponent would break the lock somehow, or that I wouldn't get it, I instead find ways to increase the chance of the lock or strengthening it, which is basically running more of cards that do the same thing in different ways (like fossil dyna/emptiness). I currently run 12 stall cards, which is high, even for a stall deck, but it helps get first turn lock, and stall dies fast, so I just keep adding to it; I like to have 2 stall cards on the field at all times. It all depends on the build, I guess. Do you have the deck posted where you run wave? I'd like to see it. Cosmos is good, but more often that not, it is a means to an end, like for Abyss. I let Abyss get their grave effects, because they only use them to special summon, just like tellars. So I just stop special summons. I don't even side SIM or cosmos or dfissure or soul drain against them, even though I side deck them. It is just an extra component added when it isn't needed and would hurn consistency otherwise. On the other hand, I side all that stuff for Shaddolls for obvious reasons. The only deck that I side cosmos for while they use cards to search one another out is infernity; they are extremely powerful, and if not floodgated first turn, they will likely win. Its like a consistent exodia, sheesh. I think Cosmos is best off as side unless locals are crowded with sylvan/mermail/dark world or something. I like the emptiness lock, but it isnt reliable enough to main it because of that unless maybe cosmos was at three. On a separate note, I modified the Guardian Sphinx deck. No more lacoodas in there anymore, runs so much better. And I've never actually run a meta deck before, maybe I should try it (Infernity or Burning Abyss, I think) But I'll probably leave yugioh by the end of this month, so can't do that (although, I still would want to go to irl tournaments).
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Post by BurnForGame on Sept 15, 2014 13:29:21 GMT -6
I don't have a newer-format PACMAN deck posted with Heat Wave, but I have such decks on DN. I'd need to give them current-format testing before I put them up anywhere, just to be sure my logic still holds, but it's worked well in the past. I feel the same way about stall cards, though. ParalEclipse (it's here if you've never seen it, although it's an old build) packed the stall in, as twin stall is also my preferred playstyle.
Some people say that running meta is the best way to counter it. Personally, I think a deck like PACMAN that lacks a "standard build" is best improved by using it a lot to understand its interactions with the meta. To each his own, though! We all learn differently.
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Post by cardtheorist on Sept 15, 2014 14:35:58 GMT -6
True, it just depends. I personally favor cards that do a single thing. Pacman does take a lot of work and finding interactions with the meta is critical; its not like other decks, it is pretty time consuming.
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