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Post by thursday on Nov 26, 2013 19:21:56 GMT -6
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Post by Yoh Komori on Nov 27, 2013 1:43:00 GMT -6
I'm really iffy on this. It basically means you can run a shit deck, scrape by to the top cut, and then let pure chance set you up to top where a more skill player should have won.
(and before people shoot me down for that, please understand I see the "skilled players, regardless of deck will beat out less skilled players/less knowledgeable players, but that just sounds like the best case scenario to this idea of a crap shoot after rounds upon rounds of scrimmage that actually prove who gets the game more vs who has better luck)
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Post by thursday on Nov 27, 2013 1:52:32 GMT -6
I don't see what 'pure chance' has to do with it. I can see this putting everyone on even ground for top 16 and really puts their skills to the test, rather than just steam rolling with a 'flavor of the list' type deck.
If they really get into top 16 with a bad deck, they probably deserve 9 times out of 10. I feel like this could add more flavor to a very stale game.
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Post by Yoh Komori on Nov 27, 2013 2:14:11 GMT -6
I don't see what 'pure chance' has to do with it. I can see this putting everyone on even ground for top 16 and really puts their skills to the test, rather than just steam rolling with a 'flavor of the list' type deck. If they really get into top 16 with a bad deck, they probably deserve 9 times out of 10. I feel like this could add more flavor to a very stale game. If konami wanted more flavor they could go and make a tea flavoured ice cream..... this isn't anything but a means to reduce the chances of the same players (who have popped up for years in big tournaments) of being able to use their years of experience, and try and get new blood(read, konami's target age group/skill level) from getting beat out by people who could arguably be called "pros" and instead get complete randoms who no one knows about and whom generally don't have much insight on the game, to top. They could just as easily have run draft as a "sister event" to standard play and operate both as YCS tournaments (much like they do for consoles and cards now) and still have draft players compete at worlds in a "world's draft tourney" alongside what we already have. That way everyone is happy and they could truly gauge which is more worth their money VS just going with the on that makes a cheap profit short term(in theory). |
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Post by ALZ on Nov 27, 2013 11:39:12 GMT -6
The main problem I have with this is the pack itself. I've heard from many that Battle Pack 2 drafting is a lot shittier than Battle Pack 1 drafting. Battle Pack 1 was at least more skill-intensive, and even players that opened crappy pools could still come out on top if they were good enough. It is frankly obvious that Konami hasn't put much thought into making the pack for drafting. This game is not Magic the Gathering where packs have been tested extensively for drafting, and to base the finals and the winner of a large-scale tournament on a draft is quite ridiculous to me.
You'd think that Konami would at least test this out once or twice to see how it goes before committing all of their YCSs to this new procedure.
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Post by BurnForGame on Nov 27, 2013 16:41:04 GMT -6
This game is not Magic the Gathering where packs have been tested extensively for drafting, and to base the finals and the winner of a large-scale tournament on a draft is quite ridiculous to me. You'd think that Konami would at least test this out once or twice to see how it goes before committing all of their YCSs to this new procedure. ^This. I am absolutely stunned that this is going to happen. It's downright silly to me to have people bring a deck to a top-level tournament, cut to the Top 16, then change the rules completely by forcing everyone to play from a narrow card pool. This seems like a wildly failsome proposition, but we'll have to wait and see what happens. Am I the only one who gets the feeling that we're about to get some absolutely wacky list because of this, to "open the playing field" some? I've been expecting another wild and crazy list anyway, but this really confirms it in my mind because it specifies "the Americas" as the region getting these changes. It all just feels like they are saying, "If you're good enough with a certain deck, prove it... But, once you do prove yourself, you're going to have to show 'versatility' by using what we tell you to use." It actually devalues the list in a sense, depending on one's competitive goals. |
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Post by Yoh Komori on Nov 28, 2013 1:28:09 GMT -6
This game is not Magic the Gathering where packs have been tested extensively for drafting, and to base the finals and the winner of a large-scale tournament on a draft is quite ridiculous to me. You'd think that Konami would at least test this out once or twice to see how it goes before committing all of their YCSs to this new procedure. ^This. I am absolutely stunned that this is going to happen. It's downright silly to me to have people bring a deck to a top-level tournament, cut to the Top 16, then change the rules completely by forcing everyone to play from a narrow card pool. This seems like a wildly failsome proposition, but we'll have to wait and see what happens. Am I the only one who gets the feeling that we're about to get some absolutely wacky list because of this, to "open the playing field" some? I've been expecting another wild and crazy list anyway, but this really confirms it in my mind because it specifies "the Americas" as the region getting these changes. It all just feels like they are saying, "If you're good enough with a certain deck, prove it... But, once you do prove yourself, you're going to have to show 'versatility' by using what we tell you to use." It actually devalues the list in a sense, depending on one's competitive goals. No, my guess is we are about to see a HUGE wave of old pros who see this for the farce that it is, retire, and because of that konami will get "derp and derpina duelist circa 5d's era or newer" winning YCS events. this does not even show versatility. Pardon my french but...fuck, I'm a god damn card encyclopedia, and that would not mean dick if I topped because it's LUCK-OF-THE-DRAW! this does not test skill this makes a gamble of long odds and SKILL become just a gamble of even longer odds with less/no skill required. just scrub your way into topping position, make your way in on good tiebreakers(screwing out someone who did better and got on the bubble) then pull like the shows and troll all the remaining pros..... |
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Post by thursday on Nov 28, 2013 12:26:17 GMT -6
I don't really get what you're trying to say, Yoh. People who 'scrubbed to top 16' would've been top 16 regardless of this or not.
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Post by Yoh Komori on Nov 28, 2013 14:36:29 GMT -6
I don't really get what you're trying to say, Yoh. People who 'scrubbed to top 16' would've been top 16 regardless of this or not. some people actually are skilled enough to make it to that point. they win their games on applying knowledge and grinding out other skilled competitors and rely far less on luck (top decking well, ideal hands because of inconsistent deck lists that only appear so often ect..) where as others keep pulling it out of nowhere dropping those 1-2 combos that win in the deck, or keep generally getting lucky and winning less on their skill and more on how often they draw well/ when cards like sixth sense and pure chance scenarios like that pull of. (think of it as a blackwing player or gladiator beast player topping VS laval quasar, or gallis FTK, or chain burn* featuring something completely random like dice jar at 3 of topping) For the latter of the 2 I noted, more than their share of games likely were not earned, they were stole (in the sense that pure chance let them get the win, and not that skill paid for it with hard work) This allows those people who exploit those "pure chance" cards who seem to have "good luck" yet another roll of the proverbial dice to get their way with the game when odds and probability say their inconsistent main deck would be squeezed out by more streamlined, refined builds (like what happened to lightsworn** on quite a few occasions, before it became completely unplayable. it lost to more streamlined, focused builds with equally or greater skilled players backing them). *Disclaimer: I do not think burn is nothing but pure chance, I am simply showing an example where pure chance would play heavily into a deck winning. no competitive minded player would main deck 3 dice jar with the current card pool, expecting to top, it would not be skill that makes a dedicated chain burn with 3 dice jar win, it would be pure chance, as the odds of it consistently hitting off max damage would be infinitesimal with a 8+ round tournament. **Disclaimer: Again speaking to the luck vs skill issue. LS had the tools to be played as a skill-based build, but people were simply going for "herpy derp 3 JD and 3 honest, and if all else failed brio and charge will bail me out" type crap during that 8 or so months they were at full power/had a fighting change. I know LS is and was a skill based build, but the mechanics it is based on beg players to give in to pure chance....it's why LS as an engine has been featured in such things as chaos dragons and other such "suicide bomber" decks. |
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Post by thursday on Nov 28, 2013 15:57:49 GMT -6
You didn't really explain anything. Again, if those decks did make it to top 16, which is incredibly doubtful, they would've been able to do that with the old way as well. Changing to Draft changes nothing about that.
Also, LS being a skill based deck, heh, okay.
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Post by Cranium on Nov 28, 2013 22:43:33 GMT -6
I think BSA is undervaluing the skill level of this format. Sure you got things like Sixth Sense and Return but if you even follow the coverage of ARG Circuits, most of the guy who tops tend to know their stuff.
Also if a YCS Final isn't decided by who open Sixth Sense first and instead by a lesser degree of derpness, than I would like to think that would be healthier for the game.
I still don't agree with how Konami executes this but it is still a positive move when all things considered.
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Post by JerkJerk on Nov 29, 2013 7:14:04 GMT -6
This list of cards is so horrible. It's even got Sinister Serpent, Dark Magician of Chaos and Magician of Faith, Cyber Jar, Premature Burial, Monster Reborn and Pot of Greed in it, which you can't use in Competitive Play. Which either is one of 4 possibilities;
1) All of these cards are coming back
2) Konami is reprinting them for the sake of reprinting them
3) Did not preview the set list
4) Throwing in power cards to even out potential card pool
A draft strategy with pretty much any of those 8 cards are almost freebies. Which is counter-intuitive.
Anyways, horrible avenue to force on the player base, should have tested, done some R&D, created a better product, and hell, we can create a better draft set.
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Post by thursday on Nov 29, 2013 8:30:49 GMT -6
Don't forget the cards in the Round 2 pack as well.
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Post by JerkJerk on Nov 29, 2013 9:08:52 GMT -6
As far as I know, there is not a complete list yet, but from what I've seen it's even worse outside of maybe Safe Zone and maybe Fog King.
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Post by thursday on Nov 29, 2013 10:47:55 GMT -6
As far as I know, there is not a complete list yet, but from what I've seen it's even worse outside of maybe Safe Zone and maybe Fog King. Safe Zone and Fog King are ultra rares, so they wouldn't be allowed in Draft play unless they change the rules for the YCS Draft. |
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